Dr. Ron Holt: let’s open the doors to help the LGBTQ+ community

“When I was in my first year of medical school, I finally came out to my homophobic dad and it did not go well,” announces Ron Holt, DO, a board certified psychiatrist, author and advocate for LGBTQ+ rights. “I never want anyone to go through my traumatic experience,” and that is why Dr. Holt is such a relentless champion for the LGBTQ+ community. He has presented talks nationally for more than 15 years on the consequences of bullying, suicide risk reduction, access to quality health care for the LGBTQ+ population, and how to provide a safe and welcoming clinical and mental health environment for his community. In this Smart Sex, Smart Love podcast, Dr. Holt shares his personal story of growing up as a closeted gay man and the mental health issues resulting from no support, how rural and religious communities often do not provide an accepting environment for the LGBTQ+ population, how this population can find quality health care, and opening doors to help the LGBTQ+ community. I call Dr. Holt “Mr. Resource” because he knows how to find resources for every person and every issue. Listen in. You will find our conversation fascinating, educational, informational and emotional. 

Transcript

JOE KORT  0:05  
Welcome to Smart sex smart love, we're talking about sex goes beyond the taboo and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. My guest today is Dr. Ron Holt, a Board Certified psychiatrist, author and national speaker. Since the year 2000. Dr. Holt has been a relentless advocate and educator on lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans issues and civil rights. In 2008. He expanded his presentations nationally to include LGBTQ plus health care, the consequences of bullying, and suicide risk reduction. He has presented to hundreds of audiences, including physicians, and how to provide culturally competent care, as well as welcoming clinical environment for the LGBTQ plus community. He has spoken at regional, national and international psychiatric conferences on topics relevant to improving the mental health of queer youth, including the intersectionality of mental health, gender, and sexual orientation. In 2022, he was elevated to distinguished life fellow of the American Psychiatric Association. He is Kansas City University, adjunct assistant professor and practices as a student health psychiatrist at San Francisco State University. In addition, Dr. Holt has received numerous national awards for his community service and commitment to diversity. Today, Dr. Holt will talk about opening doors to support LGBTQ plus people. Welcome Dr. Holt. Thank you. It's an honor to be with you today. Thanks for having me. Oh, yeah, it's an honor to have you You've done so much since two since 2000. Is that right? I know. 25 years, it's a long time. It's a long time. And you still enjoy it, obviously. And you still have a lot of passion for it. Yeah, you know, I do I do. I it feels like every every year that I do, and I kind of enjoy it even more and more. And I realized that you know, now that I'm older, and I have the ability to be a role model for for young people. I feel like it's kind of my responsibility to do so. Yeah, no, that's really nice. I feel the same way over all the years that I've been doing this, why is for you supporting LGBTQ plus people important? So you know, that's a great question. So you know, when I was young, I really struggled with my sexual orientation. I knew, you know, that was, I was probably gay around sixth grade, but I just didn't know how to put a label to it. And, you know, I struggled tremendously through junior high in high school, and even into college. And so I think what made it even harder for me is that I had a very homophobic father. And so I would hear daily rants about gay people being bad and being sinful, etc. And then I started to internalize that and started having some internalized homophobia. And I didn't have a support model or a role model throughout that time. And even through college, you know, I met my now husband, and we were out to each other, but we weren't out to others. So we led that double life, you know, which, as you know, can be really difficult. And so I didn't have support then. And then in medical school, I came up my first semester to my dad did not go well at all. And I really wish that I would have had support then. So you know, I told myself, then it's like, you know, if I get through this, I want to be that role model that I wish that I had had when I was young. And so that's why it's so important for me today to help really support people who not yet have that support. Yes, I love that. I always ask my clients, you know, what messages did they receive whether they were overt or covert about, you know, LGBTQ, and even though the parent, and you may understand this, right, the parent may say, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I said that. They still said it. And when they said it, they meant it really hurts. That's right. And the thing is, is that once you say words, they can never be taken back. Yeah. Yeah. So powerful. Absolutely. What can happen if there's lack of support for LGBTQ individuals? What are the consequences? So that's a great question. So you know, a lot of times people who are struggling with their sexual orientation or gender identity and aren't able to be out, you know, they're more likely to isolate, they're more likely to feel alone. Sometimes, as you know, that can lead to like mental health issues such as depression, anxiety, occasional panic attacks, and, and unfortunately, in our community, people are at higher risk for thoughts of suicide and even suicide attempts. And unfortunately, too, you know, a lot a lot of times people will kind of self medicate when that when they're when they have to closet themselves. And so that could be like drugs and alcohol. So those are a lot lot of consequences that are within our community whenever we don't have that support. Sometimes I think I've always thought this, I've been out since really, I was 14. So I'm like 61 now and I was out to a therapist and to my parents, and then yeah, in those late in the early 80s. And I've noticed this and I feel like it gets stronger and stronger, where the LGBT community isn't very supportive to each other. Do you notice this? Well, you know, I think that's true. And I think even like within the L

DR RON HOLT  5:00  
The LGBTQ community, like maybe gay men aren't as supportive for lesbians, or maybe gays and lesbians aren't as supportive for the trans community. And so I think you're right, I think there is a lot of lateral violence that goes on within the community. And that's not always helpful, because as you know, in the media, and the laws and all these things that are being passed, we're under attack. And so we need to, we need to be supportive of one another, even though we may not have the right the same set of circumstances, we're all in it together. You know, why do you think we're not supportive of each other, though? Do you have thoughts about that in your work? Well, you know, it's interesting, I think, for some, some people, some sometimes maybe a gay man doesn't understand what a trans person goes through, or maybe someone who's bisexual doesn't understand what someone else in the community go through, you know, and just to kind of think through it, I mean, so sometimes, for instance, like with bisexual people, sometimes the gay community says, you know, what, you're you're not, you know, that's a choice, you need to decide whether you're, you're going to act on being gay or straight. And so I think there's a lot of like, misinformation that's even within the community, that can make it harder for each one of us, you know, to kind of work work together. Yeah. And I also noticed, and I remember this, when I was a younger guy, I've always been drawn to older gay men in terms of their wisdom. And now that I'm older, gay guy, I'm very drawn to younger gay guys for their wisdom, because I think the generational thing is something to teach each other. But it's not really like that in the gay male community as an overall it's sort of like a fear of each other. Yeah. You know, and I think that's true. And I think sometimes ageism has a lot to do with that. I think in the gay community, there's, there's so much about age and looks and beauty. And so sometimes it's it's kind of a threat when we see someone who's older than us, and we realize that we're actually going to be there one day, and that's kind of frightening. Right? Yeah. And and I think something else for like you and I, we didn't have an older generation, that kind of kind of look at, right. I mean, they they kind of were that were died from the AIDS, AIDS epidemic. So it's really been hard for us, we're kind of like we don't have someone to look up to yet. We also have to be the role model that we wish we were we had when we were younger. I know. So how can we support each other? What are your thoughts on that? So that's, that's a great question. So as far as for youth, I think there are a couple of resources that are out there that certainly weren't out there when we were and one of them is called the Trevor project.org. And that's available for kids anywhere that are struggling from as little as eight up until their early 20s. And that's a great resource. They could go online and find all sorts of resources. There's also things available, such as like chat, or they can do texting with them as well. And so there's resources that are available that weren't necessarily even taught 20 years ago. I think another thing too, in addition to the Trevor Project, there's like for kids, there's like a GSA or a que sa you know, when we were younger, we didn't have that, right. But for a lot of colleges, and like schools, and junior High's and high schools and even professional schools. There are like, student clubs that are affirmative for LGBTQ community. So that's another thing to look at as well. If young people don't find those on their campus, they can always go to like their school counselor and say, Hey, listen, I'm really struggling with some stuff here. Would you be willing to help me find someone you know on campus who might even be willing to sponsor or be an advisor for us to start a GSA on campus? So there are lots of ways to do that. There's also a neat website called The gsa network.org. That's gsa network.org. And so if you if you don't have a GSA on your campus, you could certainly reach out to them and find out how to start one. Yeah, and GSA stands for GSA can stand for gay straight alliance, sometimes it's known as Q SA, like queer straight alliance, sometimes it's known as like a private group on campus. And so I think you just kind of have to go through what whatever clubs are on on your on your campus and just kind of find out which one is for the LGBTQ community because you're right, Joe, there's different names, depending on what whatever school you're in. Yeah. And I like the the changing of the names because the binary of Gay Straight Alliance, but and then they were trying to make it more inclusive for all the other letters, which they should and led that's happening to absolutely, absolutely, you're totally right. I always think it takes a lot of nerve not just to start one, but then to go to one, even if you're an ally, because as an ally, and you're a kid, you have to struggle with people thinking that you might be LGBT and then have to live with that. That's exactly that's exactly right. And so we're all kind of in this together. And I think really, sometimes the LGBTQ community kind of overlooks how much allies make a difference in our lives, right? Because a lot a lot of time people can just say, Oh, you're you're just saying this because you happen to be gay. It's like no, it's because I'm a human being and and I deserve the same rights as everybody else. But when you have an ally that comes in and says that then it's like they you know, they people will see it in society saying, Oh, they will

really have any benefit from saying this. And so maybe we ought to give them more credibility. So the allies, you're right, they can also struggle, but also allies can be our tremendous friend, it can actually have made huge differences.

JOE KORT  10:15  
I agree. Totally. How can an LGBTQ person navigate healthcare to find his own environment? That's

Speaker 1  10:22  
a great question. So you know, I think even when you and I were younger, there wasn't really any LGBTQ affirmative clinics, right, or ones that would identify as such, or say, hey, that we're welcoming for the queer community, there are now actually websites that are available for people to actually go on and on online and say, Hey, listen, I want to find a healthcare director that either either identifies with the queer community or is very gay friendly. And so there's, there's a couple that I think would be very helpful. And the first one, it just just came out to help help directory service from the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association. And so if you go to glma.org, and the you actually can go on there put in what what filters it is that you're looking for, and then they can actually find some in your community. I think for trans people, as you know, we've had all these bills across the country that have been passed. And so they may be struggling, or maybe they're having a hard time finding health care. So there's an organization called W path, which is stands for the World Professional Association for trans health. So w path.org, they have a way for trans people to find, you know, providers in their area. And the last one is that I think more now more and more than ever, people are looking for, like GLBT therapists, and also like psychiatrist, and there's a, there's a website called aglp.org, which stands for the American Association of gay, gay and lesbian psychiatrists, and they have a feature on there, where you're able to kind of filter on and find one in your area as well. So there's a lot more resources that are available than when say, when you and I were younger, and the take home message, I think for this is that if you feel like you're in a healthcare setting where they're being discriminatory, or they're not giving you the care that you need, don't stay there, right, there are lots of resources that are out there now where you can actually go to a place that's going to give you culturally competent care, because the last thing you want to do is have to hide your sexual orientation or gender identity to to your own doctor, right? Because then you're not going to get the right care that you need.

JOE KORT  12:26  
Totally. What do you have specific advice to youth that maybe not aren't out to their family, but they want to talk to a health professional? Do you have any thoughts on that?

Speaker 1  12:35  
So you know, that's a great question. And so what I would recommend doing is, you know, our internet and the Google Search has certainly become our best friend, right? And so say that you're like, someone who's like in a teenager and you're struggling, and maybe you you want to find like a gay therapist, or maybe you want to find a pediatrician, that is queer, affirmative, you know, you can always Google and just put in like queer, affirmative. pediatrician, and like Omaha, Nebraska, right, and then it'll actually bring up people that are available for you in there. I've also noticed, like when people have reached out to me to ask for resources for them in their community, if you even like research on Psychology Today, LGBTQ therapists, there's a tremendous amount that come up in whatever city that that you're looking for. And so that would be my recommendation is do is do some searches on the internet, especially if you don't have parents that are a vet you're out to, or if you don't have others around you that you're out that you know that that you're out to, there is support, but sometimes you you have to go online to start that search.

JOE KORT  13:42  
Yeah, no, that's great. I always tell people to you got to be careful, because so I've been a therapist for almost 40 years, but in the 90s I was an out gay therapist, and yes, in the 90s Nobody valued that, like people told me I shouldn't be. And if I was in a group, if I was a group of other therapists, yes, it wouldn't want me to be out because they would worry about the stigma, and then all their change, right? And now everybody says they're LGBTQ affirmative on those psychology today. And I always tell people make sure you ask them what kind of certification what kind of postgraduate training because it's one thing to be friendly it's another thing to be knowledgeable Would would you agree?

Speaker 1  14:20  
Great idea Yes. In fact, you can actually look at usually they'll have like a huge paragraph about them underneath their name that will talk about all their certs just you know certifications. But you know, I would even do some more research on him is that get off that that website you know, Google their name and kind of find out what what stuff they have going on. Do they have a podcast out there right Have they written our you know, articles about queer therapy or where whatever so there's different ways to try to, to kind of vet a therapist outside of just looking at that Psychology Today webpage? That's a great yeah. And

JOE KORT  14:55  
love your, your like Mr. resource here you have all these lovely and Never met all the good resources in our community. Yeah,

Speaker 1  15:02  
well, you know, I've done enough of that over the years and people from around the country will just like cold call email me saying, Hey, listen, I'm looking for this and this and this certain area. And so I just start Googling around and finding these resources that I wish others knew about. So, yeah, why not? Why not share the wealth?

JOE KORT  15:19  
Yeah, totally. So I also understand that you conducted some original research on the impact of rural geography on sexual identity, when you share that.

Speaker 1  15:28  
I did. Yeah. So that was kind of cool. So a couple years ago, I graduated with an MA degree from San Francisco State, and human sexuality studies. And so we had, we had to do a thesis and you know, I always have this question, Joe is like, does the impact of real geography really have an impact on our sexual identity? And so I did this survey at a school and in Nebraska, and in Missouri as well. And so I found some pretty interesting results from that. And the two that really stuck out for me is one of the questions was, has a lack of support negatively impacted your queer identity? And about 50% of the people said, Yes, it does. And the themes that were due to that lack of of support, they were more likely to be closeted. They were more likely to have internalized homophobia and transphobia. And they were also more more likely to have a delayed acknowledgement of their sexual orientation, or their gender identity, sometimes up to 10 years, which is a long time, right? And the second thing that I thought was really amazing is the question was, has a religion impacted your sexual orientation? Right, or your gender identity? And if the answer was yes, and I asked them how, right, so a whopping 50% of them said, Yes, religion has impacted my queer identity. But here's the kicker, all of the results were 100%, negative. There wasn't one person that said, you know, what, the church I came out in the church environment, and they were actually supportive of me. So I think that really shows you, especially in rural areas, that the churches have a lot to do with the way that we perceive ourselves growing up, especially in rural areas. So you would you would think now, with the advent of the Internet, that we won't need as much support and especially with churches, but that's not true. So this study showed that the smaller the town that person came from, the more likely they were to struggle with their sexual orientation or gender identity due to a lack of support and because of religious beliefs in the community.

JOE KORT  17:26  
I do a guided imagery that was created by Brian McKnight. Do you know him? Yes, I do. Yeah. I love Ryan, when he was like the original, right? Do you remember his guided imagery if the whole world was gay, straight? Yes, he'll do it. I've adapted it, I still do it. But I always say that when we get to the religious part, what were what would it be like if you had no one to talk to not even God? Because God thinks you're an abomination from church teachings? It's

Speaker 1  17:52  
Yes. You know, and I don't think I had mentioned is that one of the real repercussions because of the way the religion impacted them, is that they felt that they were bad or sinful. So they and then they were internalize that right. And so all of a sudden, we have this internalized homophobia and transphobia. And this is like, the church. This is the place where people should feel the most welcome.

JOE KORT  18:14  
It True. I always tell people, some people will come up to me and say, Well, I learned masturbation was wrong, and I felt or infidelity. And I did that. And I say those are different. That's what you did. Were taught. It's who you are.

Speaker 1  18:25  
That's right. Right, right. Exactly.

JOE KORT  18:28  
I jokingly say that as a Jew, everything was said in Hebrew. So I didn't understand a word they were saying. So if they said, anything anti gay, I never heard any of

Unknown Speaker  18:37  
that that's a good protective factor. Very, I think

JOE KORT  18:39  
it protected me, but not to lighten the fact that and one time I did a gay men's group and I brought in, I interviewed a new client who was a active sexually active Catholic priest. And I brought him into this gay men's group, not thinking that it would be problematic, because I didn't really understand Christianity or Catholicism at the time was early 90s. Sure, those gay guys that were Catholic, were so angry at me for bringing him in, because they had all this negative transference toward the church that they wanted that they were like leashing unleashing out on him.

Speaker 1  19:10  
It makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, and even even today, that's what was so fascinating. It's like, you know, when you and I grew up in the 70s, and 80s, yeah, the church was really against us. And now, but still in the 2020s. It's still an issue, especially in rural areas. And that's kind of change.

JOE KORT  19:26  
No, it's got to change. And the thing I'm going to take away the most from what you just said about your research is there wasn't one positive thing take away from the church. That's

Speaker 1  19:34  
No, no, it is. And so since you're bringing that up, if people have an interest in seeing it, I actually published that abstract. And so if they went on Google and just typed in impact of real geography on sexual identity, it comes up.

JOE KORT  19:48  
Oh, all right. Good. I'll do the same. That's great. Yeah, no, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  19:52  
Absolutely.

JOE KORT  19:53  
Let's talk about your books. You sent me some I really appreciate it. I've got it. Right. Yay. Okay.

Speaker 1  20:02  
So talk about, yeah, so that was the first book that came out in 2017. For from us it was, it's called pride you can't heal if you're hiding from from yourself. And basically, the sub subtitle kind of describes what the book is, is about. I mean, coming out to my father and medical school was so excruciating, almost literally didn't survive it. And so I don't want other people to go through that. So I created the book that I wish that I had had, when I was young and struggling with my sexual orientation. And then to follow that we did some some of those neat coloring books. And so there's like a gender coloring book was a private coloring book. And there's a couple of other ones as well. And what I thought was so fun is to create Manulis right to color, but also to put some queer, affirmative affirmation and quotes next to it. So as you're coloring, you're also reading about what a great person you are. And I think that's a great combination is to end up doing both because as as, as you know, coloring can be very affirmative, it can be very calming of our brain, it can help reduce anxiety. So what better way to help the queer community but to also have these positive comments as they're coloring?

JOE KORT  21:09  
I love you're so affirming, and especially to the youth were, oh, I know, I want to ask you, how do you feel because parents and therapists often worry about youth coming out? So early? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 1  21:20  
Well, you know, that's a great question. Here's, here's my answer is that if they don't come out, they're going to be closeted, right. And they're going to end up living this double life. And like we talked about earlier, that's going to put them at a higher risk for depression and anxiety, thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts, you know, and self self medicating. And I know that parents don't want that, right. They don't want they don't want that at all. In fact, there's, there's a little saying that I say, say, say to parents to kind of help them create a safe and welcoming environment for the child to come out when they're ready. Can I share that today? Please? Yes, yes. Okay. So I went when I travel the country, give it give, you know, giving these talks, I always talk about, you can't force somebody to come out, right. It's never the right thing to do to force someone to come out. But you can create a safe and welcoming environment for them come out to you when they're ready. And so here it is. And so say that I'm dad, I can say Hey, Johnny, happy 13th birthday, I love you very much. Please know that my love for you is unconditional. If there's ever anything in your life, Johnny that you haven't shared with me that you'd like to please know that my love for you will never change. And then drop it right. So if Johnny feels like they're ready to come out to you, that would be a good opening for them to do that. And they may or may not. But later on in life, when they are ready to come out, trust me, you as the mom or dad are going to be one of the first persons that you that come out that they come out to because of what you just said to them. I

JOE KORT  22:45  
love love, love that. I'm going to use that in my talks from now on can I use out?

Speaker 1  22:49  
Absolutely, yes, of course you can. People are often asked me it's like, well, what am I say to someone what when they come out, and the first thing that we have to say to them is Thank you. Thank you so much for feeling comfortable telling me I'm glad that you that you did I feel like now we actually can become closer family members or closer friends. Because now I know no more of you. And so it's so so important. When someone first comes out to the first word you that you say to them as, as you know, Drow are some of the most important things you can ever say in your life. And if you say negative things to them, they're gonna remember that forever. But if you come out and say, Thank you, I love you just the same man. Just think about the repercussions of doing that and how much better off they're, they're going to be because of it.

JOE KORT  23:35  
I tell parents, have you ever asked them? Have you thought about what you're going to say if your child comes out LGBT? And people say, Well, why would I think like that? Because you might be raising an LGBT child and not know it. You're

Speaker 1  23:47  
exactly right. That's exactly right. I totally agree. Totally.

JOE KORT  23:52  
Would you be comfortable sharing? How did it work out with your dad? So it didn't go well at first? So

Speaker 1  23:57  
that's a great question. So yeah, so long, long story short, is I came out to my first semester of medical school did not go well at all it came down to to the point where he threatened to kill me and my partner and we had to go into physical hiding. And so yeah, so that wasn't a good experience. I feel like I'm it's important for me to share that story when I go out and give talks because I feel it's important that we have to take an adversity in your life and turn it into an asset for others to grow from. And that story is so profound that people really listen. And parents and kids realize realize, like, wow, this could actually happen if we don't know what what to say to one another. And so, you know, sadly, it didn't. It ended up being that I had to threaten him with the restraining order in order for him to leave us alone. And so that kind of helped. But that kind of you can see why I'm so passionate now about providing that support for queer youth because I don't want anyone else to go through what I went through. So did we really didn't have a very good relationship ever since then. He died in 2007. So Were we ever able to reconcile No, not not the way that I wish that we could have. But I can't tell you who I was able to reconcile with was my mother, right? Because my mother was there and allowed him to do this. And I kind of blamed her for for the longest time. But I also realized that she didn't have the ability to do it in any different. And so that's one thing that came out of this is that when he passed away, I was able to start a new, a new relationship with her. And it was amazing. By the time she she died. So I feel very grateful for that. That's

JOE KORT  25:32  
really, really nice to hear that you at least had that. And I'm glad to share that story about your dad, because people don't actually you hear about negative stories, but you're telling a personal it happened to you? Absolutely.

Speaker 1  25:43  
And you know what the best the best that we have our is our is our storytelling, right? If we don't do storytelling, people do not get kind of what people go through. And so storytelling is the biggest asset we have. And so since since you had mentioned that if people go go to my website at Dr. Ron Holt dot.com. That's Dr. Ron holt.com. If they go there, actually, I share my story in one of the videos. So if they want to find out more, they certainly can. That's great. Thank

JOE KORT  26:11  
you, we'll definitely put links up. What else before we end, you want listeners to hear and know about your work. So

Speaker 1  26:17  
I want people to realize that they're not alone, and that they are loved. And that there are people that are out there to support them never feel like you're isolated. If you are please reach out. I mean, Hallett if you can't find a place to go reach out to me, and I can give you some some resources. I also want people to realize that older generation like us, we've gone through a lot, and we have a lot to share. And so I'm hoping that people who've also had adversities in their life, just like I have, that they're able to use that and turn it into an advert into an asset for others to grow from. So if you've got something to share that you think would help the younger generation, by all means, do it joint join the movement with me.

JOE KORT  27:02  
I love that, you know, I have to say, because I talk as a therapist, right? I'm talking, I talk about the dark side and the light side. So sometimes I'll see the younger generation enjoying themselves at the bar enjoying themselves and LGBTQ. And I'll think to myself, do you know what I went through? And what I did to get you here? Myself and say, That's not what's on their mind? I feel proud of the work. Don't you feel proud of the work you did to make out? Yes,

Speaker 1  27:27  
definitely. Definitely. And you know, it's funny, it's like, yeah, they don't want to know, but then there's times when, you know, I've been given these talks for a quarter century now. And I've had people that that will write me and say, you know, I've really thought about what you said, and that has made an impact on my life. And as you know, Joe, that's the most important asked the most important that's better than golden money to us, right? I mean, when you can have someone said, you shared your story. And now I was able to come up to my parents because of it, right? Or a parent that has written me and said, Hey, listen, I thought about what you said, and I, I opened the door for my kids to come out. And they did. Man, that's gold to me, you know, and I really think that we have a responsibility to share our stories to help out others. Thank

JOE KORT  28:13  
you so much. Thank you so much, Dr. Hall for being on the show and sharing your wisdom and your resources. With everyone today.

DR RON HOLT  28:20  
Thank you so much. It was an honor to be with you.

JOE KORT  28:22  
Yeah. So you can hear more my podcast at Smart sex smart love.com and also go to my website, Joe court.com. And you can also follow me on Twitter Tiktok, Instagram and Facebook. And my handle is asked Dr. Joe court, Dr. J L e k o r t. Thanks for listening, everybody. Until next time, stay stay safe. Stay healthy.

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