In hopes of helping other couples publicly transition easier, Sarah Scales, a licensed master social worker with The Center for Relationship and Sexual Health in Royal Oak, Michigan, shares her story as a pansexual woman married to a trans female.
“I came into the relationship knowing my partner was gender fluid,” she begins in this Smart Sex, Smart Love podcast.
At first, the relationship was uncomfortable, not because of her partner’s gender fluidity, but because they didn’t know how to identify themselves publicly. Words like “we” became common descriptors as they tried to avoid he/she pronouns. This growing discovery of gender fluidity impacted both partners.
“We had a lot of long, intense conversations on how to publicly transition,” Sarah says. “We both were closeted; it was a transition for me, too.”
This was a huge challenge for the couple; when do they come out, how do they come out, and when do they stand up and speak and stand down and support? They had many talks about the transitioning process as well as their relationship. Trans partners also have to be mindful there are challenges for cis partners, too, Sarah points out.
What is most important, she emphasizes, is to be true to who you are. “Gender wasn’t part of it for me. It was the attraction. Focus less on gender and more on who that person is whom you love,” she believes.
“The person in private I fell in love with initially wouldn’t show that side to the world. I loved that person in private, but not so much the person who masked in public. It was stressful for both of us to live the masked life. I saw who she truly was and who she truly could be, but she was afraid to unmask.
“For me, it was really powerful when my partner came out. I loved her even more.”
Keep your label, Sarah emphasizes. Respect what a person chooses as their label. People choose a label that fits them.
“I chose pansexual; I can be attracted to someone regardless of their gender and assigned sex at birth.”
And do not out your partner if your partner isn’t ready. Always defer to what the trans person wants.
In hopes of helping other couples publicly transition easier, Sarah Scales, a licensed master social worker with The Center for Relationship and Sexual Health in Royal Oak, Michigan, shares her story as a pansexual woman married to a trans female.
“I came into the relationship knowing my partner was gender fluid,” she begins in this Smart Sex, Smart Love podcast.
At first, the relationship was uncomfortable, not because of her partner’s gender fluidity, but because they didn’t know how to identify themselves publicly. Words like “we” became common descriptors as they tried to avoid he/she pronouns. This growing discovery of gender fluidity impacted both partners.
“We had a lot of long, intense conversations on how to publicly transition,” Sarah says. “We both were closeted; it was a transition for me, too.”
This was a huge challenge for the couple; when do they come out, how do they come out, and when do they stand up and speak and stand down and support? They had many talks about the transitioning process as well as their relationship. Trans partners also have to be mindful there are challenges for cis partners, too, Sarah points out.
What is most important, she emphasizes, is to be true to who you are. “Gender wasn’t part of it for me. It was the attraction. Focus less on gender and more on who that person is whom you love,” she believes.
“The person in private I fell in love with initially wouldn’t show that side to the world. I loved that person in private, but not so much the person who masked in public. It was stressful for both of us to live the masked life. I saw who she truly was and who she truly could be, but she was afraid to unmask.
“For me, it was really powerful when my partner came out. I loved her even more.”
Keep your label, Sarah emphasizes. Respect what a person chooses as their label. People choose a label that fits them.
“I chose pansexual; I can be attracted to someone regardless of their gender and assigned sex at birth.”
And do not out your partner if your partner isn’t ready. Always defer to what the trans person wants.
00:05
Welcome to smart sex smart love. We're talking about sex goes beyond the taboos. And talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. I'm Dr. Joe Cort. Thanks for tuning in.
00:21
Today we're talking about cisgender partners of transgender partners. With my guest today, Sarah scales. She's a licensed master social worker with the Center for relationship and sexual health. With me actually in Royal Oak, Michigan, she has a special interest in helping families and adolescents navigate the challenges the younger generation face as they grow up and become more independent. Sara also works with individuals who identify or are diagnosed with neuro typical conditions, such as Autism Spectrum Disorder, ADHD, and intellectual disabilities, who need help with managing depression and anxiety. But today, she will share a personal story, she will talk about her experience as a cisgender partner of a transgender partner, and provide some advice to help others successfully successfully navigate this type of relationship. Welcome, Sarah. Thank you so much for having me today. It's really good to have you. I'm so happy that you're joining us. And I was specifically, so glad to have you joining the center. So that's always a pleasure to have you as a therapist with us. But the fact that there's nothing really out there about a mixed, but what do you call this? It's that mix? It's like a mixed gender identity relationship.
01:38
Yeah, you know, we never put a name on it, to be honest with you. But yeah, I think you could say, a mixed gender identity or a system trans partnership, something like to that effect, I suppose. I'm not sure if there's an official name. Well, I
01:52
know that therapists and my clients are always saying, what are the resources? Where are the books? What can we do? And there's really, there's really nothing and I've gone to several conferences, and there might be one person doing it, and they never really do the best job. I don't know, why do you find the this the dearth of this to that dearth? What is it sparse?
02:11
Yeah, well, I think for me, it's also hard to is, in general, when it comes to LGBTQ with couples, the information is so heteronormative already, so you have this added thing on top of it, and it feels like a unicorn is they might say feels very unique.
02:26
Yeah, yes, it does. And, and it's less and less unique, but it's so little talked about. So I'm really glad you're here to do that. And and we'll do that as much as you're willing to share. absolutely happy to help. So, so many of the couples that I see where this is the case, it happens after the fact, you know, they have already gotten involved. They're already committed, they may be married, they may have children, and then one starts transitioning it was it the case with you, or did you go into it knowingly,
02:55
I went into it mostly knowing my partner at the time, more identified as a kind of closeted somewhat more gender fluid at the time. And so I came into the relationship understanding that there was a trans element to it. However, the decision to fully transition both socially and somewhat physically did happen in the course of the relationship before we got married, in fact,
03:24
okay, so then you would identify as cisgender Is that correct? Correct. cisgender? woman? All right, and how would your partner identify? transgender woman? Okay. All right, great. And can you would you be willing to share? What were some of the challenges that you faced?
03:41
I think the biggest challenge at the time was just knowing how to deal with public interactions and knowing my place, and how to assist in those areas, when to stand up and speak or when to stand down and to support. I think, also naturally, like a lot of the clients you see, knowing what the future of our relationship was going to look at, like, especially knowing what the future of our relationship would look like with each other, knowing what we were, what the two of us were going to look like, and knowing what my partner was going to look like there were a lot of conversations once the transitioning was going to happen.
04:17
That makes sense. And I'm sure they were probably difficult conversations, just like anything in a relationship where things have differences start to surface?
04:25
Absolutely. I would say it was very similar those kinds of conversations. I think it is unique in its challenges. But definitely those conversations were just like any other differences in opinion or just differences in what what you just said what we expect in a relationship.
04:42
What would you say are some of the responsibilities of a cisgender partner in relationship with a trans partner?
04:50
I think it's important for a sis partner to be able to separate their feelings from what their trans partner is going through as this partner has valid feelings of concern. uncertainty, but they're your feelings to be responsible for just also in the general nature of the relationship, it's also just a really good idea to make sure you're checking in with your trans partner on anything regarding what they want to be referred to, as in different public settings, and in private and respecting what that looks like. Because it could be different from situation to situation. And then what about the responsibility to the trans partner for you know, in the relationship? You know, it's hard for me to say specifically only because I'm not the trans partner, but I will say what has been helpful is for the trans partner to be open to the fact that there are going to be challenges on also the SIS partner side. And also knowing when, when to maybe share those challenges together. And maybe when each of those partners need to turn to other support networks for those challenges.
05:55
Yeah. And then where do they find those support networks? Like people ask me all the time? Where do online communities exist? For the couple for the trans person for the cisgender? person?
06:06
Yeah, that's such a hard question to, because there really isn't a lot of support networks, I would like, I think the best way to think about it is actually the grief circle, the person in the center and the different circles outer, I think when it comes to transitioning, the trans person is in the center of the circle, they're the one going through that experience, this, this partner is on the outer circle. So that means that the trans person is going to look for that support outward. But for some of the things that the SIS partner is going through some of those feelings, events, concern, uncertainty, obviously, some need to be shared, and a couple a couple setting. But some of those feelings also should be turned outward to people that they feel comfortable with. If there are supportive friends and family, for instance.
06:52
That makes sense. I know there's a lot of possibilities on Facebook, too. There are groups, but when you go on Facebook, you're going on with your real name, your real identity, whereas like Yahoo groups or other online groups, you can kind of go in and and be more private. I know people want that more in the beginning for sure.
07:08
Yeah. Reddit, I know has lots of different communities for all sorts of things. And I, I would not be surprised if this kind of a community could be one of them as well. The nice thing about Reddit is it is more private, like you said, and it is there's a lot of people that go on there. There's also the problems with that come up with Reddit, which is there are sometimes not so nice people on there, too. Oh,
07:31
yeah. Oh, my God, I'm sure lots of judgment and lots of angry and and I mean, there's so much right people, you know, like a mixed orientation, where one comes out is not straight. There's a lot of anger and betrayal. I'm sure the same happens here. Exactly. Absolutely. But But what's nice in your situation as you went in knowing that there was some gender fluidity and that it could it could move in that direction?
07:53
Absolutely. It's actually kind of funny, one of the things that we joke about is, I almost personally went through my own process of feeling like my partner was going to come out as trans female someday, I kind of went through my own process, believing that that was probably going to happen. It just kind of already saw the signs with her that that was the direction we were going to go. And so when it finally came out to be that way, I was almost more prepared, I would say ironically enough.
08:21
Now I know people say this, I'm just speaking from the general population. You know, I'm on Tic Tac now. So I'm hearing even more from the general population that I forget, you know, we get into our therapy bubble, but people will ask questions like, Well, now, does that make you a cisgender? Woman a lesbian? And is your partner a lesbian? And how do you identify like, how do you answer that?
08:40
Oh, that's such a good question. So, um, I have I identify as pansexual, which is my special way of saying I don't have to answer the question. Because for me, it's, you know, for and that is true for me. For me, I did discover I was pansexual before I met my partner, um, and that was my own personal kind of realization for because for me, gender is less a consideration for me. And whether I find someone attractive or if I'm romantically attached to them, that just is how I am. So, my when I met my partner, Funny enough, the issue in the beginning was it was less of dealing with my own, you know, sexuality, and more that I had to out myself now to family and friends, because of my partner, which was fine. But honestly, the day that I had to explain that my partner and I were together was the day I had to out myself to my family and friends, which was, I was very lucky. my closest friends were extremely supportive. My family was very supportive with the whole thing they actually knew my partner before we got together so that definitely helped things. So for me it that that's how I identify and that was already the truth coming into the relationship. But yes, for my partner, she does identify as lesbian. That is the name that she holds most dear to her. I have I always feel that labels are as useful as you want them to be. So always respect what the person's label is and less of what it's should actually be.
10:11
I love that. Yeah, totally makes sense to me. I hope people hear that. Can you tell them though some people hear pansexual they're like, what is that? They don't know.
10:19
Absolutely. So I like to say it's part of what we call multi sexualities. So that includes bisexual pansexual. It things like that are polysexual even. And I think the differences between the groups, it depends on who you talk to. And there's a lot of discussion and disagreement about it online. Some people say pansexual is just bisexual, and you know, all these things, right? Me personally, I ascribed to pansexual. Because to me, what it means is that I still have things that I find attractive, and that I find I am romantically attached to in a partner. And I don't just mean personality things, I also mean, even physical qualities, but the gender identity or even sex at birth, is less of a consideration for me in that attraction. A lot of people I meet who are bisexual for them, they are open to maybe all genders, but they may have preferences. If someone is more masculine versus feminine. For me, that's actually not really the case. I like similar things, and also identity at sorry, in all gender identities. So that's for me what it means.
11:29
Yeah, because I know a lot of people wonder about that. And you know, they don't they don't that. So pansexuality is more like a sexual orientation, where cisgender is your gender identity. Exactly. Right. I love the line. Your forget, I don't remember who said it. But you're I forget how to say who Oh, your sexual orientation, what your gender identity it was, who I go to bed as your sexual identity is who I go to bed width,
12:02
right? I think you might meet your gender identities who you go to bed and your sexual orientation is where you go to bed with Yes, exactly. Yep, yep.
12:10
Now another thing people are going to ask and wonder about is, what's the difference between having a transgender trans female partner and a cross dressing partner?
12:20
Oh, that's an interesting question, too, because part of my partner's journey was actually starting out with more of a cross dressing and then leading into transgender. I think the difference? I think that's an interesting question only because I have not personally been with someone who only identified as cross dressing, but I think the biggest difference is to do with how they express themselves as their gender, someone who's cross dressing, but still identifies as male or masculine. I feel the interest in cross dressing may not necessarily mean that they're going to act more traditionally feminine, for instance, obviously, is fluid and everyone's a little different. My partner, without a doubt is a woman. When you talk with her, when you speak with her the way that she presents herself and things like that. They're so it's so much of what she sometimes used to give to the outer world before she was out was such a mask, and so much what she shared with me privately was not what I would at all call very masculine, or what I would even feel comfortable saying man, based on what she's telling me and also how she's presenting herself. But again, I'm kind of using some binary terms to explain this. So it's very fluid and really depends on person to person.
13:40
It really does. And there's a lot of controversy about do men a cross dressers are usually not only but usually cisgender heterosexual men who cross? Well they call it I mean, they didn't even call it that anymore. They're calling a gender play, where they erect it feels it's erotic, you know, it's simply sexual, it's to get off, right. It's not about being a woman. It's like feeling like a woman. However, there are some sis hat men, and some gay men and by men who engage in this and over time, it evolves into recognizing the really trans, which it sounds like maybe was true for your trans was definitely the case for my partner absolute life. Yep. Yep. And I know, there's lots of people that I mean, I think it's getting clear as time goes on. But I'm glad you brought that to our attention because there's so much controversy about that.
14:28
Absolutely. I think it gets I think the the main thing I've had I've learned through his processes, you know, social constructs are both harmful and helpful sometimes and anything just kind of goes.
14:41
So how did you, you know, what kind of advice do you give to people when they come to you? Or they ask you, you know, I'm cisgender, my partner's transitioning and I'm struggling. Yeah,
14:51
I think for me, it's important for that cisgender person to first of all have that space that is, again, when we think of that circle. That's face More outwards. I think for me, it's okay to sit with those feelings for yourself and reflect upon them. I'm a big proponent that your feelings are always valid, but you should always be aware of your actions. So it's okay if you need to sit with those feelings and figure out what that means for you what that means for the both of you and to know that you're not going to have an answer right away. And also recognizing the fact that Yeah, there there could be a big change with your partner transitioning, the hope is that they're going to be their their true selves. But maybe the person that they truly are ends up not being a person you're attracted to. And that's okay, that I think we all kind of go through that in relationships where someone at first acts a certain way, and even when they're cisgender, and then ends up becoming a different person. And that's, that can happen here too. And it's within your right to choose of, is this still a person that I feel romantically attached to? Or is this a person that I no longer do? So having all of those kind of discussions with yourself and with a trusted person about those feelings?
16:08
And you may not have the answer to this, but I know that these are questions people ask too. Like, for instance, when there's a mixed orientation relationship, and it's a cisgender male and his cisgender female partner comes out lesbian, he is not as likely to stay in that relationship, or as long as when it's a cisgender female with a gay male, or a bi male women tend even in to cisgender people, the women's usually stay longer than men do. I wonder if that's the case here. If it was, if you were a cisgender male and a female partner, or assigned female at birth partner, transition to trans male, you know, that information,
16:52
I don't know, at the top of my head, but considering what we often see with cisgender, especially heterosexual men, I wouldn't be surprised if we were seeing that's the case. Only because there's unfortunately, and I think you can speak to this better than I can just this big. I don't know how else to describe it. But just This is big feelings that I think certain sis men have with this idea of, you know, am I not straight all of a sudden, and how that can be really hard to wrestle with if they're not already part of the LGBTQ community,
17:25
right, and the stigma that they would face and all of that I know exactly. What else have we not touched on that you think it's important for people to hear about couples in your situation where one cisgender and one's transgender?
17:37
I think the main thing I want to also make sure is, it's good to know is, for me, it was really powerful to have my partner come out as trans. Now, I know not everyone is in this situation. But I was in a situation where my trans partner was essentially masking to a lot of the world not everybody, but to a lot of people About her true gender, her true identity. And that was hard for me, because I love the person, she would show me in private, that was the person I wished everyone else could see. In some ways, I was actually less attracted to the mask she put out than the true person underneath. Yeah. And so when she finally was out, that was such a nice, it was just a nice time to be able to finally be open and not feel like I was hiding so much. from everybody. It was stressful. To be fair, you know, I did have to come out to people, I do have to explain things to people. And, you know, with extended family, I have had to help whether those conversations and such like that. But we've been pretty lucky that we have such a good core support that we've been pretty shielded, I would say from some of the worst of it. But that was I think the most beautiful thing to see was just for finally showing who she could truly be and who she truly was. I think it's also important with that to always go to your trans partner on how they want to be referred, as I mentioned this in the beginning, but this is so vital. Do not guess for your partner, make sure you ask and be aware that the answer is going to change day by day because it changed for us. Originally, I could only use my partner's dead name and wrong pronouns in front of family for her safety. And that did switch and now it was the complete opposite it was encouraging the use of it to make sure that family members did it correctly. In knowing that that's that's what it's going to look like. And those conversations should always be happening every time and being open as his partner being open to to change. And just be making sure that you are open to other trans people. You really cannot be a good sis partner if you show love to your trans partner, but not to trans people.
19:49
I like that a lot. That's a really well stated thing to add. Thank you for that. You're very welcome. All right. So Sara, where can people find you On the internet and and get a hold of you and maybe even make an appointment with you.
20:03
I think it's best if you go through CRS H and go through their number. I don't have it at the top of my head, but I'm sure you do and going through there, and I am still kind of figuring out my schedule for appointments. But please give a call and we'll work with you.
20:20
Yep, and CRS H is the Center for relationship and sexual health and our numbers 248-399-7447. And we're pleased to have Sarah she's been with us, I think, what, six months now? Yeah, that's about right. Yeah. And it's it's great. And she's taking clients. And we will be really felt strongly about this being a good topic, because it's so rarely spoken about. So thank you, Sara, thank you for being on the show. Yes, thank you so much for having me. And if those of you listening, I hope you enjoyed it. And if you did, please go Feel free to go and rate me. And if you're a new listener, I hope you are come back and you've enjoyed this show. And if you want to continue to follow me, you can follow me on Twitter, tick tock, Instagram and Facebook. And it's at Dr. Joe court. Dr. JOEK rT, thanks for listening. Until next time, be safe. Thanks for listening to this episode of smart sex smart love. I'm Dr. Joe Cort. You can find me on Joe court. com. That's jekrt.com See you next time.