Jay Kaplan on the fight for LGBTQ+ rights under the Trump Administration

In this first episode of Smart Sex, Smart Love's fifth season, Dr. Joe Kort talks with Jay Kaplan, an attorney for the ACLU of Michigan’s LGBTQ+ Project. Jay shares insights on the Trump 2.0 administration’s executive orders affecting LGBTQ+ rights, particularly policies targeting transgender individuals.

They discuss the removal of LGBTQ+ references from federal websites, restrictions on gender-affirming care, and the reinstatement of the transgender military ban. Jay explains the legal challenges being filed to stop these policies and how they impact civil rights.

The conversation also covers how the LGBTQ+ community can respond, the importance of unity, and the broader impact of these policies beyond transgender individuals. Jay encourages listeners to stay informed, speak up, and support advocacy efforts.

🎧 Listen now at  JoeKort.com or follow Dr. Joe Kort on Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook @DrJoeKort.

Transcript

JOE KORT  0:05  
Welcome to Smart sex, smart love. We're talking about sex goes beyond the taboo, and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. To my guest today is Jay Kaplan, an attorney for the ACLU of Michigan's LGBTQ plus project, since it began operations in 2001

some of the issues he has worked on include marriage equality, second parent adoptions, and the Amy Stevens case, which was heard by the United States Supreme Court and resulted in federal civil rights protections for LGBTQ plus employees. Today, Jay is going to talk to about the Trump administration's attack on the LGBTQ plus community and actions we can take to challenge these policies. Welcome, Jay. Oh, thanks, Joe. It's great to be here. Oh, it's always a pleasure to have you. I've had you speak in my my classrooms over the years, and I've read everything that you've you know, said in the paper, you're just a great resource. Well, thank you. Yeah, thanks for being here. Alright, so let's start with the questions, right? So, because people are very upset, our clients are coming in very upset. I'm upset. You some you talked about being upset. What policy changes are taking place in the Trump 2.0 administration with regards to LGBTQ plus rights? Well, you know, he issued a plethora of executive orders just in the past three weeks. It seems like it's been seven months, but, and one of the first things he did so you mentioned the Amy Stevens case, that was a historic case where the United States Supreme Court, it was a different Supreme Court, then they held that LGBTQ people were protected against employment discrimination under federal civil rights laws, under the theory of sex discrimination, because even today, we don't have explicit civil rights protections for sexual orientation or gender identity under our federal civil rights laws. So as a result of that opinion, the previous the Biden administration directed all the departments of the federal government to apply that decision, saying that when you discriminate against LGBTQ people, it's sex discrimination. So in housing and in education, Trump administration, one of the first executive orders was to rescind what President Biden say, said, and essentially saying that LGBTQ people do not have protections against discrimination under federal civil rights laws. And then, of course, we know all the website, the White House website, cleared everything. Any mention of LGBTQ people, any mention of, you know, Pride Month, any mention of x in terms of the CDC, accessing information about LGBTQ health was removed. From there, information about HIV prevention was also removed. But I don't, you know, I think the most important thing to take away from this is clearly the focus of the executive orders have been an attack on transgender people, just, you know, and I would call it a pummeling. And you know, the executive orders, they redefine what sex is saying it only applies to biological sex, meaning the sex that was assigned to you at birth. They got rid of the terminology gender, prohibiting transgender people from getting federal ID that reflects who they are, they including a passport or Social Security records,

Jay Kaplan  3:24  
denying transgender people access to federal facilities, bathrooms on federal property, reinstating the transgender military ban, not only prohibiting transgender people from registering for the Military, but also possibly discharging actively serving transgender people.

JOE KORT  3:43  
And then in terms of school, of saying, also saying, we will take away all, we won't allow federal money, money to be used for gender ideology. And so how that translates with regards to access to gender affirming care for transgender people, issuing an order saying any hospital or health care facilities that are providing gender affirming care for transgender people, even if you're not using federal dollars, we will take away any federal money that you receive, also threatening to take away federal money from any public schools that are affirming of transgender students if they acknowledge them, they call them by their chosen names and pronouns, if they allow transgender students to be able to access restrooms in accordance with their gender identity, if they're able to play sports in accordance with their gender identity. And if that wasn't enough, then last week, he issued also directed prohibiting both publicly funded colleges and high schools, and actually public schools from allowing transgender students from being able to play sports in accordance with their gender identity. Now are these I've been hearing different things. Are these enforced? Or are these introductions to wanting to happen?

Jay Kaplan  5:00  
Right? So, so an executive order is not a law, and if the administration follows the Administrative Procedures Act, you're right. It's, it's, it doesn't take place. It doesn't take effect right away. They're supposed to introduce certain policy proposals over a certain period of time where the public can comment on that. We don't know if this administration is going to do that. They seem to try to be moving very fast, because the office of a budget of management sent a directive to to health facilities and colleges that receive grants, telling them, if you're using you know, if you're providing any gender affirming care, we're going to take away all your money. So you know, these executive orders raise a lot of constitutional issues. It's usually the legislative branch that controls, you know, appropriations. It's not the president who decides I don't like something, so I'm going to stop it. So we will see legal challenges. Last week, the ACLU and lambda filed a challenge in federal court against this, this healthcare ban, because it wouldn't it would definitely impact places like Michigan where people can get medically necessary gender affirming care. There was also a lawsuit filed against the transgender military ban, as well as a lawsuit filed last Friday night about the passport executive order.

JOE KORT  6:19  
Now I also remember if I'm remembering correctly. Tell me if I'm wrong, that when Trump was in this administration, the first time he had removed all the LGBT stuff from the White House pages. This is the second time, right? Yeah, I think this is a little bit more extensive, though, because it wasn't all the just only the stuff from the White House web pages, but different departments of government, including the Department of Health and Human Services, any information pertaining to LGBTQ health has been wiped off. It's no longer accessible, okay? And what do you say to this? A lot of gays and lesbians will say, well, this isn't affecting me. It's horrible for the trans but you know, they're not coming after me. What? What's your problem? Well, I would say they are coming after you, because, based on some of these policy initiatives. And actually, Joe, these policies are verbatim from Project 2025, and you might recall, during the election, there was a lot of talk, and then candidate Trump said, I don't know nothing about this. Have nothing to do with it. These folks who are now in the administration wrote these executive orders. But regarding members of the gay and lesbian community, this has nothing to do with it. Absolutely. Discrimination against members of our community are motivated by society's stereotypes about how someone's supposed to look and present themselves, who they're supposed to love based on the gender assigned to the birth. So it's the same motivation, and as I said last week, at this town hall meeting, every advancement that we've made, significant events we've made in terms of LGBTQ civil rights, came from the transgender community. The Stonewall revolt. It wasn't white gay men,

despite that movie that came out about it, were transgender women of color who decided to stand up to the constant harassment by police and law enforcement of, you know, local LGBTQ establishments, and anytime you know, I mentioned about sex discrimination covering LGBTQ people, the genesis of the all those cases eventually going up the United States Supreme Court came from cases involving transgender people. Amy Stevens was our client. Transgender Woman worked at a funeral home. She finally had the courage. She was, she was, you know, she was being herself in her personal life, but at work, she was, you know, still presenting herself as male, and it got to be too much. So she finally told her boss who she actually was, and he fired her on the spot. Despite years of service, of excellent evaluations, and she decided, you know, she wasn't going to take it anymore. And her case went all the way up to the United States Supreme Court. She was dying. She was dying of kidney failure in the in the last year of her life, while this was going to the Supreme Court. But she was determined, you know, to see this case through. She wanted to fight for it, and she didn't live long enough to see the decision. She died six weeks before the case the decision came down. But she was committed to this. She wanted to make a difference. So we owe most of our successes to LGBTQ rights, to the trans community. And if we are to say that doesn't matter to me, you know the T in our community. Well, you can, you can very well expect the next step is going to be the L and the G, and we can't do that. And this is our most marginalized part of our community. That's it's under all assault by this administration that wants to deny that every first of all, they want to declare them invisible, and they want to deny every aspect of life, you know, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to this community. How could anybody say that doesn't that doesn't impact me, that doesn't affect me, or I don't care, and I agree.

So why are we seeing such an unprecedented and thorough assault against the trans community?

Is this politically motivated? And if so, what's the motivation behind these actions? Yeah, well, there was a really good article in The New York Times two years ago about some of the conservative groups that were anti LGBTQ, and after they lost the fight about marriage equality, they got together and they said, Okay, where can we focus on next? What's a group? You know, one of the things that change about marriage, equalities, society, hearts and minds change. More people knew same sex couples, gay and lesbian individuals, and they said, you know, this isn't fair, so let's focus on the transgender community, because still, a lot of people don't understand what that means, what gender dysphoria is, and let's use them as a way to to gain political power. This will help us fundraise with our and firm up our political base, and and, and it's it's also distraction to the lack of, you know policy initiatives to really focus on what problems are really affecting people? What are transgender people constitute less than half of 1% of the population. And yet, the focus and the attention, particularly in this administration, it's, it's just amazing how obsessed they are with transgender people's lives, and and, and just the idea that they should be able to live their lives. Well, it's like you say, it gets people's attention and gets people riled up. Oh yeah. You know, it's interesting, Joe. So the Republican majority in Michigan, they regain the house. What's the first piece of legislation of all the issues affecting the state of Michigan that people care about? They issued two bills, the first bill to prevent transgender kids from being able to play sports and denying them access to bathrooms and locker rooms. Because, of course, we know that is the most pressing need and concern. When the Michigan High School Athletic Association tells you they can only identify two transgender kids out of 175,000

Jay Kaplan  11:55  
kids who play high school sports, this is the top priority, and once again, I think it as camouflage for the fact they don't have any ideas how to really fix the problems. You know anybody who thought they were voting because the price of groceries or gasoline? I mean, I don't believe that one person can change that, but they don't have an idea how to fix it. This is a distraction. And what do you think about this whole bathroom issue? They're always focused on trans females in women's rooms. They never talk about trans males in female bathrooms. About that? Well, I mean, I do hear it sometimes, but it did. It's kind of this notion, I don't want to see a penis in the female restroom, but we know, you know, the exposure of genitals in restrooms, that's not acceptable behavior, you know, for anybody in a bathroom that doesn't happen, transgender women are far more in danger being forced to use a male restroom. You know, there's, there's never been a report of any sexual or physical assault by a transgender woman against a CIS, just gender woman in in a in a public restroom. But we do know that many transgender women have been attacked when they've been forced to have to use the male restroom. I mean, we all use the restroom for one purpose alone, you know, you close the door and that and and that's what happens. And it's, you know, it's just ridiculous. And I think, you know, it's, it's being proposed by people who try to create fears in many places in the UK, is mixed gender in bathrooms. Have you ever been I'm not. They're not paid to plug them. But last supreme the restaurant here in Detroit. Have you ever been to it? I haven't been to there. Is that what they do? It's a French restaurant, and they have mixed gender in the bathroom. It's all it's together. I've seen, I've seen in other countries, where you use the restroom and then you come out to the center and you use the same Yeah. I mean, listen, what, what is, what is the big deal? But there are people who want to make a big deal about that, yeah, and, and, I think it's also based on this nature or but based on this notion that transgender women are not real women, you know, somehow you hear offensive like Nancy mace, that house representative, you know, Who? Who? Who prevented that transgender woman from, you know, elected a representative from being able to use the restroom. You know, they kind of create this scenario that that somehow there is a danger to them and and they feed into fears and mistruths about transgender Yeah, they do.

JOE KORT  14:19  
Are there ways to challenge these executive orders to prevent or ensure that they don't become actual policies. Aren't these orders unconstitutional? And don't they violate civil rights of trans people? We believe So absolutely, and you know, an executive order cannot usurp civil rights laws, and in Michigan, we have explicit civil rights protections for members of our LGBTQ community, and so we think this is a great overreach by the executive branch, by President Trump. He doesn't control the purse strings. He can't stop, you know, expenditures, and he can't prevent states like Michigan that are doing the right thing and that want to do the right thing. So our hope is.

Jay Kaplan  15:00  
That through the federal courts, courts will will slow down the process or prevent these executive orders from being implemented. You know, it usually starts with a judge entering a temporary restraining order, and then which, you know, puts it on hold, and then deciding, should there really be a preliminary injunction? I mean, ultimately, all these cases are going to go up to United States Supreme Court, and whether or not this current Supreme Court is willing to uphold this, I don't know. I just don't know, you know, because it's a highly politicized court. But I think if we can do anything, we can to slow down the process, to gum up the works, to prevent these things from being implemented. Hopefully, until a new administration, I think we will be winning. But, you know, I think there's also a very real concern that the Trump administration might choose to ignore these federal court orders. There was just an article, yeah, they're, you know, they were told not to freeze already committed funds, and yet they're already violating that order. And he's made statements. And so his Vice President has made statements that, you know, judges can't tell the President what to do or what he doesn't want to do, so I think we're going to see a showdown with that, but that's really our only hope. We're not going to see anything, to be honest with you, from the legislature, certainly not the Republican controlled Congress, they have acquiesced with everything that he's wanted to do, and unfortunately, the Democrats don't have the votes, you know, to be able to overturn anything, but they can speak up. And what we also have to see is our leaders, who are our friends, and the people that we consider allies, they need to be very vocal about this sort of thing. And you know, we've called on, you know, our senators, Senator Alyssa Slotkin and Senator gear, you need to speak up. You need to talk. You need to speak and out against these things and in favor of the trans community and let them know that you're there to support them.

JOE KORT  16:47  
I was so pleased that Dana Nessel issued an attorney general statement on Friday telling healthcare providers don't stop providing gender affirming care. You know, because you'll be in violation of state civil rights laws, we need that kind of labor leadership, and the transgender community needs to hear from people that other people have their back and are there in support, especially now, but they already have, I have, without naming names of companies or hospitals, have already said we're not. We're no longer doing Orwell core Well, which doesn't have to do that, and it's just like anticipatory obedience. And I think there needs to be put pressure on them, public pressure on them. And maybe some families who found that their appointments have been canceled, maybe they need to file some civil rights complaints against corwell for taking those kinds of actions. It's, you know, it's very upsetting when you see, you know, entities who should know better? You know, if it was a Biden and executive order, they wouldn't. They would have taken those steps. They didn't need to do what they did. And hopefully they'll reconsider. I don't know. I don't know. I think maybe if there's enough public outcry, I mean, they're the biggest, you know, they're a pretty big game in town, and people need to speak out against and put and put that pressure on their leadership and on their board. I have no idea why I said we don't need to mention names, and then as soon as you said the name, I'm like, Why did I say that?

Maybe, maybe how young people feel now too, like they you know what I mean? There's like, um, a hesitation, right? What do you make of that? Like, why did I happen to me? Even? Because you're a reasonable you're a reasonable minded person, Joe, and I think for many years, we've always said we have to have a civilized discussion and and I'm all for that. We don't have to be impolite and call people names and stuff, but we were, but we have to recognize the harm that's being done to this. This some of the stuff that's happening right now, aside from the LGBT issues, the idea that an unelected billionaire who donated $300 million to present campaign, has this authority to go into computer systems with the Treasury Department and Social Security. That's frightening. That's scary. And this is something that we're not used to. It's it's way out in the open. So we do have to speak up. I think it's just something we're not used to, kind of calling it like it is. But I think we have to, we have to let people know who are the players who are doing this, who are the people who are going along with this, and why are you doing this, you know, and I'll just share this with you. I mean, Alyssa Slotkin, democratic center, so totally supportive, and it's done a lot of great things, but she voted in Congress for a military spending bill that prohibited using any funding to pay for transgender healthcare for military members for their kids. Why explain? Why did you feel you had to do that? She voted to confirm Christy Nome as Homeland Security Director. Okay, Christy Nome has a long history record of being against LGBTQ people. Why did you feel you needed have to vote for her? I'm not. I don't mean to call her out specifically, but we need to have these conversations with our friends. Why do you think you had to do something like this? Other Democrats voted against it the expenditure bill, because they thought it was wrong. Other people voted. You're not running again for election until 2000

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
1030

Jay Kaplan  20:01  
Why did you feel like you had to do that? Have that conversation with us. Talk to us because, you know, that kind of stuff sends the wrong message.

JOE KORT  20:10  
Realistically, is there a threat to marriage equality for same sex couples? A lot of gay lesbian couples are worried about that. Yeah. I think somewhere down the line, yeah, I do. If you had asked me a couple years ago, I would say no, but after the United States Supreme Court overturned the Roe v Wade decision, and what was so concerning about that was not only because they reversed the decision about reproductive health care, but the way they went about it. Usually, a court doesn't reverse a legal precedent unless they can show changes in the law. But was very clear with the Supreme Court majority, they wanted this result, and they would reach it whatever way they had to. And we know that there are two justices on that court, Clarence Thomas and Alito, who had Samuel Alito, who have called for revisiting this decision and that they thought it was wrongfully decided. So I think there is a chance in a couple years that this case could come back before the United States Supreme Court. I don't think it's going to happen tomorrow, but, but I do think it could happen, and if it did happen, they would return the issue about whether or not same sex couples can marry to the States. It wouldn't affect already married couples, but, but it would affect, you know, prospective couples who wanted to marry. And you look at a state like Michigan, we still have on the books a 1996 law that prohibits same sex couples from marrying and also says we won't recognize legal marriages from other states. And then in 2004 our voters approved an amendment to our Constitution, so we would have to get rid of those things. And you know, there's talk that we probably might have to do a ballot initiative which is very expensive and labor intensive. They cost at least about $25 million a campaign like that. And the thing that I you know, when you ask me, Why should lesbian gay people care about transgender issues? And I told you the reasons why, the other thing that I'm concerned is I don't want our community to think that we can only do one thing as opposed to the other. We have to focus on both things. And I don't want people to think, okay, all the resources you should only go to this marriage equality issue. I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time, and we can for this, but I think the immediacy and the people who are being harmed right away are members of the transgender community, and that should be our top priority, while we also watch very closely about this issue of marriage equality. We've heard about some state legislative legislatures, they passed resolutions asking the United States Supreme Court to reverse themselves. Well, that's just a symbolic gesture doesn't mean anything. You need an actual case that has to come up through the United States Supreme Court, and that takes a little bit of time.

So now I want to ask you this, because a lot of people are coming through our group, you know, our clinic, and, you know, coming to me and just they're online. They feel exhausted. They feel disempowered. What can people do to fight back or take action against the policies of the Trump 2.0 administration. Yeah, but we all have a voice. We all can speak out. I used to always think, Oh, the people on social media, they post something on Facebook, big deal. No, it is a big deal. Now, I think every statement that someone can publicly, publicly make against this, we have to remind ourselves that that Trump, two won with less than 50% of the vote. And this is not a mandate to do what they're doing, and we have to hold our leaders accountable in the way. As I said, before even the good people, we need to say, you need to speak out and you need to do everything you possibly can, and your role and within your powers to try to stop this stuff from happening happening. And we need to, you know, of course, support programs and organizations that that support our LGBTQ community and provide, right now the much needed mental health services and support that these members needed the as a result of this. You know this, this unprecedented assault on on their rights and their lives. Um, okay, oh, no. I was just going to say, I think anything you know, anything that somebody can do, it can be something very small. And you're right, Joe, it is so overwhelming. Part of their, part of their their their strategy, their modus operandi, is to throw everything out at once and overwhelm people and make you feel helpless. So what I'm trying to tell myself is, okay, Jay, what's your lane? Focus on one thing, follow it through, keep yourself informed, and work in that and support others that are doing, you know, doing the other issues. And I think maybe that, that that's a helpful thing, and then we all have to take good care of ourselves, you know, we, we, we all have, you know, our lives, and we have to find the joy in our lives. If there's nothing wrong with doing something you enjoy and and that you like and taking that time, because this is going to be a tough fight. It's, it's, you know, we're only in week three, and as I said before, it feels like seven months, and we have four years of this. And.

Jay Kaplan  25:00  
And I, you know, I think a lot of people forgot what it was like in the previous, you know, every there's something every day. I'll say one thing about this guy, he has, you know, an incredible, vast amounts of energy and and we're going to hear stuff every single day. And we also it's part of taking care of ourselves. We can't, you know, watch the news constantly, because that's filling your head up with that stuff can render you feeling helpless and depressed. We have to figure out what's the right amount for me and what can I do, and anything that a person feels they can do. I think it's helpful. Well, I just relieved a little shame of mine, because I wasn't going to ask you this question that's up here, because I can't say the word, but I'm going to do it because I'm staying in my own lane. I'm trying so hard not to be overwhelmed. So I don't know what I'm I'm about to ask you, but I'm going to ask you, because it's on here, but I can't say, could the United States Supreme overturn Obergefell? Oh, that's the marriage equality decision. Oh, it is. Oh,

okay. They see it as marriage equal. That was the name of the plaintiff, over Oh, all right, so we talked about, all right, yeah, I know, because I don't want to look stupid. And yeah, and I think a lot of people feel this way, but I do say this. I do believe we're both the same age that yeah, I guess I too, was like, you know, get offline. You know, your little you know, like, over here, a statement over there isn't enough, but I hear what you're saying. It's still good. But I think that when we were younger, we had to get out and lick envelopes and meet people and buoy each other up and get pizza and be up late. And I think that that should happen. I think that's how you feel like you're making a difference. Sure, sure. I think maybe the nature when we were younger, of course, we we didn't have all these things online, and we didn't have the cell phones and stuff that really have separated people a lot. And some people are just, you know, that's not even just part of their life, getting together and working on a particular campaign. I mean, that still exists. And if you, if you're able to do stuff like that, I think, I think that's wonderful. If that's not your thing, there's some things you can do online. You can send an email to your legislator, your elected official. You know, you can weigh in on those sort of things. So I think whatever works.

And yeah, I mean, and there, I think there's a lot of people who feel after this election, who did eat the pizza and stayed up really late and went to all these places, and feel kind of defeated in terms of, in terms of what happened with the election, and maybe they're taking a little break or a reset or something like that. And I think that's okay too, but these are very serious times, and it's in many ways, it really is unprecedented. And you know, people that were talking about this threat to democracy that so, oh, you know, you're just being overdramatic and stuff. I know I think it's real. I think it's real. And I think, you know, I feel like I owe it to the younger generation. They deserve a better world. They deserve a much better world than they're getting right now. So what is my part that I can do towards that? Because I don't, yeah, I know you have, you have nephews and and, and that's really important to me too, with my nieces and nephews and, great, you know, I want them to to have a better world. Because this, this, I don't believe this is who we should be, this, this sense of intolerance. And this is even more than intolerance, Joe, it's this cruelty. It's really It's cruelty that you hear from some of these people spewing this stuff. And why would that ever be acceptable? I think the most shocking thing for me is when you hear gays and lesbians and even some bisexuals spewing the same hate. And you know, I'm not, I'm historically like, okay, I can talk to you. If you voted for Trump, you can talk to me, I didn't vote for Trump. It's getting harder. It's getting really Yeah, well, you know, maybe I live in my own bubble. I don't know a lot of people like that, but you know, they and you've probably studied this, studies show that people will vote against their own interest if they can be made to feel superior to somebody else. Yeah. So there might be some gay and lesbian people who feel that they're superior to transgender people for whatever wrongheaded reason that is, and therefore they will vote against their own interests. You will find people very poor, many times white people, who will vote for policies and stuff that will hurt them because they've been told to feel superior to people of color, immigrants, things like that. And it's, you know, it's a tactic that has worked for, you know, for you know, for time

JOE KORT  29:27  
immemorial. But we have to, we have to, we have to present it for what it is, and to try to remind people

Jay Kaplan  29:34  
I don't understand, I don't understand how anybody who identifies as LGBT and believes that, you know, that's a significant part of their life could vote for, you know, for any elected officials, they have policies that would harm them, or even, you know, people who have loved ones, family members, friends, people they care about, how they how they can, you know, profess to care about these people, and yet to be also aware of what these policies would do. Yeah, I really.

JOE KORT  30:00  
Appreciate everything you've said. Is there anything you want to say that we didn't ask you about that you want to add? No, I just, you know,

Jay Kaplan  30:07  
I think I know we're going to get through this. I I'm a glass half full kind of guy. It's, it's going to it's going to be difficult. But I think now is a time more than ever for the LGBTQ community to come together and to really surround, surround each other with that kind of support, and once again, to do everything that we can, everything that individuals can do and it doesn't. And by the way, our opponents would love to see this division between gays and lesbians and the trans they would love to they want to foster that you heard during the campaign. JD Vance was talking about the good gays that were the normal gaze, the normal gaze that was, yes, exactly what does that mean? You know, we can't fall for that rhetoric. And you know, we've seen in other times with us, there authoritarian regimes and where, you know, I'm not saying it's the exact same thing, even so I'm Nazi Germany. This, this, you know, let's divide people. Let's divide people against each other. And you know what, they always say, you divide groups, and that's how you conquer them. So we can't fall for that, and we need to call it out. And you're right, Joe, sometimes it's, it's hard to get through to people. We also know that people get their information from divergent sources. Some of them are not very reputable. Some of them do not provide accurate information, but that's where they get their information. I saw this article showing that Fox News in 2023 had like 400 negative stories about transgender people, so you're talking more than a story daily on that news that people are watching, and you hear from people who might not have ever met a transgender person, or think they've never met a transgender person, spewing some of the same points that were made on Fox News, because that's the information they're getting. So we have to recognize we don't all get our information from the same place. I'm just so glad you talk about being hopeful, and you are a glass half full. People don't know this about us, but I've known you so long, when we were both single, we were in our 20s, and we'd come back, we were belong to that Jewish gay group.

JOE KORT  32:12  
I'm single. Never find anybody. You're like you were so much more positive. Well, we don't know, and

Jay Kaplan  32:17  
we know, Joe, you've been married for years. I'm still single. So

what does that tell you? Better be negative. I don't know.

Maybe negativity can be motivating sometimes.

JOE KORT  32:32  
Thank you so much Jay for being on the show. It was a lot of fun. A lot of fun for me too. Thank you. You can hear more of my podcast at Smart sex, smart love.com you can also follow me on Twitter, Tiktok, Instagram and Facebook, or you can go to Joe court.com but everywhere on Twitter, Tiktok and Instagram and Facebook, I'm at Dr Joe court, d r, J, o, e, K, O, R T, thanks for listening. Until next time, stay safe and stay healthy.

Unknown Speaker  33:02  
You.

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