Smart Sex, Smart Love with Dr Joe Kort
Psychotherapist, life coach and author, Dr Joe Kort is breaking through the taboos of the most intimate of subjects, to bring leading experts together to talk all things sex and relationships. There’s always room for improving sex and together, Joe Kort and his guests delve deeper into the most personal of human behavior, getting right under the covers to discuss the different paths we take towards pleasure. #pleasure #sex https://www.facebook.com/joekort/ https://twitter.com/drjoekort www.JoeKort.com
Smart Sex, Smart Love with Dr Joe Kort
The Dating Patterns Gay Men Can’t Stop Repeating with Michael Pezzullo
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Michael Pezzullo, LMFT, is a licensed marriage and family therapist, gay men’s therapist, relationship coach, speaker, and creator of Therapy for Gay Men. His work focuses on helping gay men understand the deeper emotional and relational patterns shaping their dating lives, sexuality, attraction, confidence, self-worth, trauma, addiction, intimacy, and relationships.
In this conversation, Michael Pezzullo and Dr. Joe Kort explore why gay men often repeat the same dating and relationship patterns, why emotionally unavailable men can feel so compelling, and how early experiences, insecurity, shame, and the desire to belong can influence who men pursue and what they tolerate in relationships. Michael discusses how many gay men may feel stuck not because they lack insight, but because deeper emotional patterns continue to shape their choices beneath the surface.
They also discuss gay identity, labels, and the difference between calling oneself gay, queer, or something else entirely. Michael and Dr. Kort talk about why language can feel empowering for some people and painful for others, especially when certain words were once used as slurs. They also explore generational differences, individual identity, and why it is important to let people define themselves in the language that feels most accurate to them.
The conversation also looks at gay dating, body image, self-worth, and the pressure some men feel to fit into certain gay spaces or beauty standards. Michael shares his perspective on dating in places like West Hollywood, the myth that more options always make dating easier, and how comparison, insecurity, and the search for belonging can shape gay men’s experiences in community, sex, and relationships.
Michael and Dr. Kort also discuss open relationships, monogamy, porn, sexual confidence, erectile dysfunction medication, gay shame, and the importance of honest communication between partners. They explore why open relationships are not automatically better or worse than monogamy, why both require negotiation and emotional honesty, and why gay men need more space to talk openly about what works, what does not, and what actually feels safe and meaningful.
Listen to this Smart Sex, Smart Love episode as Dr. Joe Kort talks with Michael Pezzullo about gay dating patterns, emotionally unavailable men, gay shame, open relationships, self-worth, sexuality, labels, body image, and what it takes for gay men to build stronger intimacy, confidence, and emotional safety.
Hi everyone, and welcome to Smart Sex Smart Love, where talking about sex goes beyond the taboo and talking about love goes beyond the honeymoon. Today, my guest is Michael Pezzullo, LMFT, a licensed marriage and family therapist, gay men's therapist, relationship coach, speaker, and creator of therapy for gay men, Michael specializes in helping gay men understand the deeper emotional patterns shaping their relationships, attraction, sexuality, confidence, self-worth, trauma, addiction, and intimacy. He's based in West Hollywood, California, and works with gay men and LGBTQ plus clients through therapy, coaching, speaking, YouTube, and educational content. His work focuses on a powerful idea that most gay men are not stuck because they lack insight. They're stuck because they have deeper emotional and relational patterns that continue to drive their choices beneath the surface. Today, we're going to be talking about why gay men repeat the same dating and relationship patterns. Why emotionally unavailable men can feel so compelling, and how porn and sexual behavior can become tied to shame or emotional regulation. What gay men often misunderstand about open relationships and monogamy, and how therapy can help men build stronger self-worth, intimacy, and emotional safety. Welcome, Michael.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Thank you for having me.
JOE KORT:Yeah, you're welcome. We got a lot to talk about. Yeah, no, I've been following you for a long time and watching your stuff, and it's great, and that's why I wanted to have you on my podcast. So, I'm so glad you're here.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
JOE KORT:Yeah, you're welcome. So, let's just get started then. So, tell us, what first led you to specialize in working with gay men and gay male relationships.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yeah, so you know, for me, I think, and I think this is important too, when you're a new therapist, people are always like, what's your modality, what, who do you want to, what do you want to do, and you find you kind of feel compelled to like pick something, which I think is kind of crazy. So I initially had gone down more of an addiction path, although I was working in a lot of LGBT addiction spaces, but as you know, when you open your own practice, then it kind of changes because you can't go work at a facility that has the population there, people have to come to you, and so pretty quickly I realized that people were reaching out to me were majority gay men, like very high percentage, so that became the focus of my work by interest, but also just sort of by circumstance.
JOE KORT:Does being gay yourself and being in your own relationship inform the way you work with clients?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Oh, of course. Of course, I mean, no question. I mean, I think you can't separate your identity from how you show up as a therapist, you know. So, absolutely, and I wouldn't say there's anything so special about that, except that I, because not all gay men are the same, but we obviously do share a common identity and common experiences, and you know, I can't help but bring that into the work, yeah.
JOE KORT:yes, right, good. I feel like I do the same, you know, even when I work with straight people, you know, just having a different perspective. You want, you wanted to talk about the labels queer versus gay. How do you think about those terms, and why does that distinction matter to you?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:So, you know, I know that that thing, that clip from that guy from Sex and the City, went viral last week. I don't know the actor's name, but he was one of the kind of tertiary characters, but he was talking about, you know, yeah, the calling yourself gay or calling yourself queer, and what I found, I've heard this debate for a long time, and I don't really, you know, I personally call myself gay, but I could care less what other people call themselves. But I thought was interesting, though, is that in the comments, and what he said, they were making it like a generational thing of, like, oh, he's just older, that's why he doesn't get it. All the millennials and younger like this term. Well, I'm a millennial, and I don't, I don't, I don't like it. And all my friends are kind of my age, and we don't, you know, a lot of them feel the same way, because it was still a slur when I was growing up in New York City, in Hell's Kitchen, in like the gay mecca. It was still used as a slur, so if people want to rebrand for themselves again, totally fine, call yourself whatever you want, but I personally don't use it for myself, but I disagree with the idea that it's just a generational gap.
JOE KORT:I agree with you, because not everybody uses the word, even younger people. I've noticed that in my practice, but for sure I tried so hard, I thought, okay, I'm gonna go along with this. I'm getting older, maybe I need to just accept the word queer, but I was in my.. I was in the 70s and the 80s, I was chased around, called queer, called f*ggot, all the words, and queer just doesn't fit for me at all.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:No, I mean, I was in high school, it would have been, doesn't five in New York City, and people would still use queer as a slur, so it wasn't, wasn't that long ago.
JOE KORT:Yeah, and I think it's just, I think what you're saying is it's not necessarily generational, it's person to person, however they feel comfortable.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Totally, and if you love that, awesome. Like, I'm not trying to tell anyone else how they should refer to their own personhood, that's, you know, but um, I think everyone has a. A right to pick their own term, and if they don't like that one, then that should be fine too.
JOE KORT:Yeah, when clients come in my office, I always ask, how do you self-identify, and I use the word that they use. I might say to them, well, tell me, tell me what that word means to you, but then I'll use their term.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I like that. I should do that.
JOE KORT:Have you had anybody come in that's straight that uses that term? They'll call themselves queer.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:No, not now. Although, when I worked in a teen treatment center years ago, when I was doing my kid hours, and every single person, everyone there called themselves queer, every single one, and none of them were.. I think there was like one person. This must have been like 15 kids or so. I think one of them legitimately may have been LGBT or something, but there were these like super straight guys that had zero interest in men, and were like, "Yeah, I think I'm queer. I'm like, "You know, I don't know if you are, but if you like this term, go for it, yeah.
JOE KORT:yeah. And then, when I asked the straight people why they're using the term "queer, what they will say to me in my office here, they'll say,"because straight doesn't fit with me, I'm a little fluid sometimes, and my fluidity makes me want to have some wiggle room around who I'm attracted to and what I might do, but that doesn't make me less straight. But being queer fits my identity more, and I love that.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yeah, yeah, I mean, hey, like labels are they're not that necessary anyway, so you know, whatever people like that, that's fine. If that makes them feel more safe and open, then go for it.
JOE KORT:Yes, all right. A big part of your work is helping gay men understand the patterns underneath dating, sex, intimacy, and self-worth. What are the most common patterns you see in your practice?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Wow, there's a lot. I mean, I think there's a lot of comparing despair to other guys in the community, it's so funny too, because I live in, so I live in West Hollywood, and people always talk about, like, the popular gays, and like the this and the ad, and I legitimately, I'm like, I have no idea who they're talking about, I have no, I don't know, there's so many gay people in this neighborhood, I don't know all of them, so you know, when you're in high school, everyone kind of is, it's a small enough cohort where you can kind of have a mutual understanding of who's cool and who's not, based off of who knows, but that is a kind of a thing, but I couldn't tell you who the cool people are or why, but I think it speaks to more of a perspective of I think a lot of gay men grew up feeling like an outsider and like they don't fit in, and so there can be this preoccupation with I want to fit in and I want to feel included, but there isn't really like a group to accept you necessarily anymore, because we're adults, and I think that can people get lost in that, and that can drive a lot of behavior that just doesn't lead anywhere. So, they know super useful.
JOE KORT:Do you get clients, though, that feel like they're left out, or they don't feel like they fit in as a West Hollywood gay, yeah,
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:yeah, yeah. And I think, I think what's interesting too is that the people, a lot of people that are preoccupied with fitting in, probably do, and a lot of people that just don't care. I don't think it really matches always the actual experience. It seems like a moving target if I'm trying to get certain people to like me, but I don't know who they are. I'm assuming they're at a, you know, maybe at the Abbey or something. I'm not sure, but um, and I think guys that are more like really secure in themselves and confident don't really even think about that sort of thing.
JOE KORT:You're probably right. What about in terms of dating people? You know, I have a lot of clients, they're dating in different cities or wherever they are from, and they all struggle, and they think it would be so much easier if I was living in a gay mecca, like West Hollywood. Is that true?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:So, I can't.. I honestly don't know, because I haven't done it myself. I can't speak from personal experience, because only ever lived in New York and LA. So, I think I think that's a fair point. If you live in an area where there are just very few gay people, then, yeah, I think that could definitely, you know, make a difference. I do think, though, that if you live in, if you're comparing LA to, like, another city, but it's smaller, it might be easier, because there's, like, not so much, you know, endless options. People can just keep looking around. I don't know, and I think it also depends, too. Some people get very triggered by being on apps, and then some people love it. So, it.. I think it depends on the person.
JOE KORT:Do people come in saying that they feel uncomfortable in West Hollywood when they're trying to date your clients?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I people often just, you know, get frustrated with the whole process of it, of, you know, everyone's on apps. There's so many people, it's just like a lot of conversations that are never leading anywhere, so yeah, I think that's a pretty pervasive like complaint in general, which I think you know, fair enough. I think there's a lot of reason to be to have frustration around that.
JOE KORT:Yeah, I know people feel that way, and I think people think, well, because there's more out there, it's going to be easier, but sometimes more makes it harder.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:It could, yeah, I think I don't have, like, a strong stance on that either way, unless you're living somewhere where there's just barely any gay people.
JOE KORT:Yeah, right. And then you also mentioned that LGBTQ community can sometimes become intolerant of diversity of thought or opinion. Tell me. What you're seeing there, and can you talk about that?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yeah, so I think even, um, even like the when I was seeing people talk about this sort of, should we call ourselves gay or queer thing, that a lot, I majority of people who responded to me, and I was talking to said a lot of, most of them said they call themselves gay, but they're totally cool with either one for other people, but there was a lot of there. I did see a lot of people pushing back about even the suggestion that we don't all have to be the same, you know? Like, do all gay people have to think the same, feel no, say have the same labels? Like, I, I'm all about like individual freedom, kind of person. So I do think there can be this like we all have to be on the same page about everything, and I think sometimes people feel a little threatened if we're not, which I can understand. You feel like you're in a, you were cast out of the big group, now you're in a small group, and like you want them to feel like they're super solid for you, but I do feel like that it sometimes it can get into a place where we're not tolerating enough people just being themselves,
JOE KORT:oh, sorry, you were frozen. Okay, yeah, I agree with that, but I also think, too, that every.. this is what my experience has been. I wonder if it's been yours. Gay men, in general, LGBT, in general, but gay men, in particular, each think that they're the expert on gay life, not an expert, the expert, and when I was coming into my own in private practice in the 90s and the 2000s there was so much fighting and not enough accepting that, hey, we're all doing this together. What can we learn from each other? Do you find that you're able, that it's still like that there, or is it different now?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I think my experience has been pretty different, only because you know I come from, like, I come from New York, and I come from an area in New York that's also gay, so being gay in no way makes you unique or special, like it's not like a special prize you get to own, and so I never really felt like anyone was trying to stake that claim that they are the expert, because if it was like one gay guy in a sea of 10,000 people, maybe he could do that, but since it was not like that, I personally haven't experienced too much of that, but I can imagine, maybe you know, at a certain time it probably was, yeah,
JOE KORT:yeah, I'm glad it's not that you haven't experienced that, maybe it's changed, you know, the younger therapists, and what about the conversion therapy ban being lifted, because you work with gay men. So let's talk about that.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:That sent me, I was so, so mad. So I've worked with a lot of people that have been through conversion therapy, and it is horrific what they went through. I mean, it's like truly like psychological torture, and not only that, just, and you know, we have objective data that shows that conversion therapy A doesn't work, and B increases suicide risk, like it's just objectively proven. So, and I'm so like open-minded with people that I honestly don't really care if someone is not so gay friendly or homophobic, like I just don't. I'm not going to interact with them, and we're not gonna be best friends, but like, I don't really need to police someone's thoughts. But why do we should have a, you know, children should not be subjected to this. I think that's fair, like that's just where I draw the line, you know. If they want to, these conversion therapists want to, like, you know, hate gay people and burn pride flags in their backyard. I'm like, do you? I mean, it seems like a complete waste of time, but whatever. But you know, manipulating children into fake therapy that you know is going to harm them, I just think is like objectively evil. So, yeah, we're not having
JOE KORT:I know. And where's the public outcry on this? If, when you think about it, there's a huge public outcry for drag queens reading to children, but no public outcry about putting a child in conversion therapy.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I'm totally with you, and I was disappointed, particularly with, I don't know, a lot of these LGBT organizations. I feel like I've lost the plot of just basic- they're always fighting for things that seem to be so not practical and just not losing trade of, like, our basic rights, so when this happened, there was some, like, you know, this is awful, and then it kind of fizzled away, and I thought, like, well, and now we're back to talking about drag queens, or something, you know, something like, like, that's also an issue, but this is definitely more important. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know why there wasn't a lot of, you know, that I think also I took the time to like read through the law as it was before, and the case, so, and I was familiar with it. I knew we were going to lose based off, because that the way the law was written was bad, it was too strict. So I could see that the argument they had for overturning it, I did actually think was compelling, but we all know what they're going to do. They're then going to go,'Great, let me go do this to children, you know. So I think it's really wrong, and I wish that there was more discussion and pushback about this.
JOE KORT:Yeah, me too. I remember in the 80s, so this guy named Joseph Nicolosi, he started an.. oh, right, North. Oh my god, and he actually.. oh, go ahead.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:You know, his son is doing it now.
JOE KORT:Yes, I was gonna say that, but wait, his. Son says, oh, my father was the pioneer of male sexual fluidity, and I spent a lot of time correcting people in psychotherapy, a circle saying abs a f*cking lutely not. He was a homophobe, he was the one that would say there's nothing gay about being homosexual, and you know that,
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:and isn't it funny that his own son seems allegedly pretty gay to me. I mean,
JOE KORT:I've never seen him, I've never seen
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:just watching his content when I first stumbled across, and I was like, it was gonna be, we're interviewing a conversion therapist, and the guy starts talking, and I'm like, oh, this must be one of those gay guys who like converted and then is just not acting on it or something, because he's so he's so effeminate, it's like pain, it just screaming out of him, and then no, he has, he's, you know, claiming to be, I, in my mind, I thought conversion therapy is, we're gonna take you to, you know, hunting and teach, toughen you up, and see this bro alpha, like,
JOE KORT:yeah,
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:you know, that would make more sense to me, this guy is like gayer than Christmas, and he's super manicured and quaffed, and has a little bit of all this stuff, and he's gonna tell you, tell your kid not to be gay. I'm like,
JOE KORT:I have never, I've only read his stuff, I've never seen him in action. The father was kind of like that too. His father was a little bit like
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:a little loafers, yeah. No, the son is worse. And my theory is that they're both gay, and, but can you imagine you're the biggest homophobe on earth, and your own son is gay. It's so.. I'm sure it's all complicated, but they're evil people.
JOE KORT:Yeah, and there's been a lot of people like that, where you're the biggest homophobe, but your son, daughter, niece comes out as, as gay. And I don't know how they negotiate that. I don't know how they deal with that.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I don't either. And it's like, you know, just don't make it our problem, you know? If you don't want to be gay, then don't, I don't know, don't be like, go to you, I don't care, but this whole thing of, we're trying to help kids, it's just, it's so gross, it's so gross.
JOE KORT:Well, and people don't know this, that I'm sure that I know this still goes on, but I'm sure that this isn't the norm, but it used to be more the norm, where they would show these kids, they would put them in camps, and they would show them homosexual and heterosexual images, and then they do know this. They will put, yeah, the electric.. what is it? Electric shock therapy to their genitals to help them not be excited by this.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:It's when I started doing some research on this, you get to the point where, because my thought about first of all, I don't even like the idea of calling any kid gay, I think it's weird. I think I sometimes I think the LGBT community goes too far with this. Also, where you see these like little kids holding up pride flags, Michael, we were talking about sex here, like this is a little off message for me. For kids, I think when puberty kicks in and sexual feelings start developing, we of course should talk to them, like, you know, just basic education and whatnot, but this, like, label yourself now, and for me, I'm not a huge fan of anything sexualizing children. I think we should just let everyone be who they are. It's all good, don't put a label on it, put a label on it. Who cares, you know? Like, that's that's my approach. But, um, but anyway, yeah, when you get into the what they were doing to allegedly convert children, so much of it is so explicitly sexual and pornographic, and they're doing this with kids.
JOE KORT:Oh my god,
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:wild.
JOE KORT:Totally, so that I agree with 100% I'll just say I probably stray a little bit when I see a kid identifying as gay or holding up a gay pride sign. I don't look at that as sexual any more than somebody holding up a romantic novel or listening to a fairy tale that's about Sleeping Beauty, and, and you know, being kissed by a prince, like that's no more or less sexual than it is that that gay kids get introduced to gay love. Now, some of these Pride Fest, yes, I can understand that there's different levels of sexuality being displayed, but I think just seeing the word gay and lesbian, or being around it and being around other people, isn't, isn't sexual, it's it's identity.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I know I agree with you, and I think for a long time I've, I think I probably feel the same way as you. My problem is, what I feel like it doesn't stay there, because you're right, I want kids to know that you can fall in love with a man or a woman who can't, you know, we just want you to be happy and have a happy relationship, and you know, achieve as much as you can, and you know, so, and yeah, there should be some education and awareness. I like all that too, but I do, you know, having gone to many Pride parades in my life, and having seen how it's, you know, the one I was at last year, I saw some things around kids that were not appropriate, so that's for me. I go into this realm of like, we need to, if we do it, we need to make sure it's kid-friendly.
JOE KORT:Yes, right. And I agree with you, I do, because I think, as I've gotten older, I've kind of witnessed an increase of sexuality that goes on in the, in the Pride Fest, and I do think about the kids, but then I think about, would we say that if kids are families, they go to nudist groups and and allow themselves to be naked in front of their children, and they go to these new.. we, I don't know if the people would feel the same way about that, or do they understand it, because it's. Different context, or maybe it's a bad thing to.. I don't know, maybe I should take this out of the podcast.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I think it's a good point, and I think, well, I think first of all, if we want to be strategic, it's the worst PR on earth to see like a half-naked person twerking in front of a child. I mean, like, just from like a strategic perspective, like, what are we doing? What, because you know that's going to get clipped and sent everywhere, and you can't deny, because it happened, and from just that perspective alone, like, can we be more strategic? Like, we're trying to make people homophobic, but anyway, I, I take your point. I think, in general, children are way overexposed to, you know, sexual thing. I mean, the average age that kids start watching porn is like eight. It's a crazy.. so, yes, I think we should take an approach that's much more about, like, safety and education, and not any explicit content, and I do agree that, you know, the quote unquote straight community obviously does plenty of this themselves, but I don't want to be like, well, they're doing it too, so like, I think it's wrong everywhere, you know?
JOE KORT:Right, yeah, I get it totally. Now, let's talk about gay male couples, open relationships versus monogamous relationships. I'm sure that you have a lot to say about that, and what you see. Where do you stand on that, and how do you work with that?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:So funny. So, like, when I, you know, I come from, I think a lot, almost every, not every, but most gay therapists I've met have come from very conservative, repressive families, cultures, religions, and now they're like busting free, which I totally understand, like I've seen that arc with so many people that I know of. You feel so like boxed in that you're just like, I'm gonna let it all hang out, you know. For me, it was the utter opposite. Like, I come from, I grew up in, you know, Hell's Kitchen, right? Times Square, there was like hookers smoking all the time, and it was not like it was in this New York, and my family was so progressive, so never ever felt like I was being stifled at all. It was, you know, everything was available, so I know my perspective is a little bit informed by all of that. So, I think there's a few things. When I first started hearing about the open relationship stuff in a context of therapy, I like the idea of, you know, you can make your own rules. You don't have to, you know, be adhered to any structure that you don't choose. I really do like that, you know, like make it your own. However, I did feel like all of the presentation about this and literature was just like, it's amazing, it's awesome, everything was good. I heard no, no negatives about at all, just, you know, and I found that immediately kind of like, well, I don't think that's, you know, real. I think there's pros and cons to both, and we should talk about them honestly. And so that's my general take on it, is that it should always be about the person in the couple and what works for them, but it should be an honest conversation, not like, oh, it's going to be great, and if it doesn't go great, it's because you're not doing it right.
JOE KORT:Right? It's communication and contract and agreements, and just like monogamy, I always say to my couples, have you, have you negotiated your monogamy? Yeah, because we don't, shouldn't just negotiate open.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I agree, and I also think, too, and I'm such a direct person, so communication isn't, isn't my struggle in life. I have other issues, but this isn't one of them. But even when they always talk about, like, you know, just communicate and communicate and communicate, which is good, but like, listen, if your significant other is like, "Hey, I'm going out tonight to hook up with this ridiculously hot guy who is better looking than you, they don't say that, but you know, you know, yeah, you know, see you later. I don't care how much you communicate about that, it's not gonna feel good, it's just, it's just not, you're probably not gonna feel great in that moment, and I think we should be a little bit more honest with how we frame it for people, you know,
JOE KORT:I do think what you're saying makes sense, that we don't make room for it not working out like you're saying, like we don't make room for people to say, well, I kind of uncomfortable with that, because we do tend to, and I'm probably one of those people that tend to favor the, the openness more, and, and, and that we do do it better, I really feel like, as a rule, gay men know how to negotiate their open relationships better than straight people, but we don't talk about the times that they don't.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:I also, you know, think that open relationships work best for gay male couples, because it just, to me, feels very male. The whole, that, you know, I can't imagine a straight couple being open. I'm sure it happens sometimes, but I've never met a woman who wants her that to go on, I know it happens here or there, but it does make sense to me, for like a male, gay male sexuality experience, this would work the best.
JOE KORT:Yeah, and often it's because it's just transactional, I'm just gonna go out and have transactional sex and come back to you.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yeah, I mean, girls that I know, I've asked them, like, do you do you, would you want that, like, if you could, and they're like, no, I want my husband to, like, you know, I don't know, make dinner, or, like, you know, tell me I'm pretty.. I don't want to go hook up with hot guys, they don't think that way, you know.
JOE KORT:Yeah, yeah, it's definitely gender issues. What are some of the top gay male sexuality or erotic issues that your clients struggle with, or that you see struggling?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Sexuality. well, I think in general, there's a lot of just lack of confidence and insecurity, which I think is totally fair, particularly if you're gay. You know, the experience of developing that confidence was quite different. I do think that there's become a lot of over-reliance on, like, ED medications, which again is totally fine if that helps. And you need that, but I feel like a lot of people are using, they have anxiety about sex, and they're taking Cialis, but that's not really what they need, so I think that's become a little bit commonplace, and maybe too over over prescribed, and then I think also, too, a lot of gay men struggle to communicate just directly about what they like sexually, particularly when I feel like our culture is very, like, you know, celebrating as much sex as you want, anything, go, whatever, but if you're like, yeah, and just like a regular guy who wants to have sex a couple times a week, and like, you know, this one position I like, and I'm cool, like, we don't, that's like, that's like wrong, you know.
JOE KORT:Yeah,
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:so I think sometimes I hear from people, and that there's such an emphasis, emphasis on being so hypersexual, and they assume that everyone else is. Yeah, and I don't think that they are. I think people are having gay men are having less sex than we actually think.
JOE KORT:I think you're very right about that. And what about, I guess, another thing, just being in West Hollywood, the body image issues, and how people, you know, walking around, and they're very fit. And then, what about a guy that isn't fit? Have you had people struggle with that in your office?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, like, I don't know, I feel like every young gay man I know, when they first go into the gay neighborhood, and they see guys that look so great. Of course, it's intimidating, because you're like, you know, 20 years old, and you're still filling out, and, like, I mean, I was like super skinny until I was like 28 or so, you know. So, I think everyone, there's like a body confidence thing, just from like becoming a man, and then also seeing people that, you know, have such a high standard, but I do think a lot of it comes into how much you buy into that, that my worth is tied to this sort of thing, because also I mean, there's so many different types, I mean, some guys like, you know, lean, they like, you know, hairier, they like this, they like, I mean, there's so much variety too, so even when people talk about, like, the West Hollywood look, or like the gay look. I mean, I kind of have an idea, but I also don't. I mean, I, I think it comes a lot more down to like preference, you know.
JOE KORT:I think a lot of people buy into what the what's most visible are the types of bodies that seem unattainable to many guys, so then they feel like I don't fit in or I had something wrong with me,
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:which I can understand. I think you know women have been subjected to this like endlessly with the how brainwashed they've been, but um, but I also feel like, you know, at least here there's so many night, there's like nights where the clubs were specifically for like this, the otters and theirs and this and that, and so like there's I feel like gay guys do celebrate a lot of different looks. Also, I know a lot of people that aren't into, like, you know, 0% body fat, dude. You know, so I think it's like, about obviously, you want, you want to find your people and find where you feel celebrated, but I think it does exist.
JOE KORT:Yeah, okay, that's good to know. What else would you want people to hear before we come to an end, that maybe it's something we didn't talk about, that you want to make sure people know about your work. What about gay shame? Do you want to talk about that? Because that's a big thing I've heard you talk about in your videos.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yes, yeah. So, and this is actually one thing I think is a little bit of an issue with the universities too, is that so much of, I think, a lot of gay men do struggle with shame, I think it goes that saying, but I do feel like often that what happens is there's a, there's a certain shame that they, we've internalized, and we try to work that out through external things, like by looking a certain way, by being successful, by whatever it is, and what I think the typical gay pattern is, you get all those things and you still feel bad about yourself, and then you're like, what do I do, then you go to therapy, you know, like that's kind of a common pattern. I do feel like sometimes we are, we even the therapists externalize that so much. Like, I remember, for example, having a therapist who was like, when I told him I was gay, I guess he couldn't tell, but you know, mentioning it, and it was like, oh my god, you've been through so much, and I'm like, well, not really, you know, and he was like, no, no, no, you have, and it just kind of felt like it felt like I'm being force-fed this narrative that just because you're gay you have this internalized shame that is forever, and but it's not, but also since it's coming from the world and outside you, you can't really do anything about it, so you know, I'm just going to validate you as you, as you feel bad about yours. I don't know, it just felt kind of, and I do hear that a little bit sometimes.
JOE KORT:This one, I think I was drawn to some of the things you've said in your videos, because you have a different take, like you have not had a horrible childhood growing up gay, right? You grew up in a gay neighborhood, it's
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:correct. Yes, definitely, definitely a horrible child. Sorry. Oh, you did, but not for, not for being gay, not for being.. oh,
JOE KORT:right. Okay, but, but right. So, so, like, you're a new generation of gay guys that, like, that you know didn't live through.. I mean, you were called queer, you said, right?
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yeah, but it was different, and I'll tell you too, because I have siblings. Are much younger than me, Gen Z. It's like a different world. No one, like, they don't care, you know? They're all doing different, everyone's fluid. So I think sometimes we are kind of stuck on our past a little bit.
JOE KORT:Yeah, yeah, and stuck on the negatives. And I mean, that's how my whole work has been built on. And now I'm learning from younger generation, like you, like, oh, it's not like it's not always like that anymore, you know.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:Yeah, yeah. And I also, I think, also, too, part of the reason why I am so resilient is because of things that were tough, you know? Like, I do feel a lot of confidence in life because I feel like I've handled certain things. It wasn't so easy in certain circumstances, so I wouldn't.. I don't like begrudge all of these. I don't need the world to be perfect for me,
JOE KORT:yeah. Good, yeah. All right, so where can people find you? We're gonna list it on the website, okay? Yes, you tell them.
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:So, my website, michaelpazullo.com and then on YouTube therapy for gay men, and then on Instagram at Michael Pizzulo LMFT. So, no one has my name, so if it's.. if you see that last name, it's me.
JOE KORT:All right, oh, good, that's right. You do have an unusual name. Good. Yes, please go and follow him. You'll like what he has to say. Michael, it's been such a pleasure. I knew it would be to have you on my show. Thank
MICHAEL PEZZULLO:you. Thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate
JOE KORT:it. Yep. And if you like this episode and you want to hear more, the podcast is Smart Sex Smart love.com but you can also find us on Apple and Spotify and Amazon, all the places that podcast exists, and you can follow me on Twitter, TikTok, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram at Dr. Joe Kort, D R J O E K O R T. Until next time, be safe and be well.